23-01-2021, 12:55 PM
Pages: 1 2
23-01-2021, 02:00 PM
This is what Brandman was alluding to. A lot of clubs won’t want to have to go through the financial scrutiny that is presumably required in order to prove hardship
23-01-2021, 03:48 PM
Yes, reading another article re the club mentioned it appears that's the case.
23-01-2021, 03:57 PM
As stated in the article Chesterfield have 32 players - 9 signed recently, 4 signed from us as we all know.
The cost and losses must be horrendous and it wouldnt be hard to imagine some clubs going under who fail to have any sense of "prudent" ownership in these times.
As AP said reducing our wage bill of late given current funding issues IS prudent (certainly until we know which way the wind is going to blow!)
The cost and losses must be horrendous and it wouldnt be hard to imagine some clubs going under who fail to have any sense of "prudent" ownership in these times.
As AP said reducing our wage bill of late given current funding issues IS prudent (certainly until we know which way the wind is going to blow!)
23-01-2021, 06:19 PM
(23-01-2021, 02:00 PM)Tigermatty 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]This is what Brandman was alluding to. A lot of clubs won’t want to have to go through the financial scrutiny that is presumably required in order to prove hardship
Exactly and that was the major issue with the original money from the DCMS. They wanted to get Deloitte to assess each and every club on a need basis. They’d still be pouring over the books now and by the time they took their accountancy fees out the Clubs would be lucky to get £10k a month.
Thete is no such thing as a Hardship fund. All clubs were told if anyone was seriously I struggling then consideration would be given where financial assistance would be a necessity to keep the club afloat. But again the Club books would have to be scrutinised. Prudence doesn’t even come close in my dictionary where crass spending is obvious.
A final point before I go, hthere seems to be a lot being said about a meeting on 17th November and claiming where are the minutes from the NL with the DCMS. Firstly it was a DCMS meeting at which the NL could only have one representative and the NL were the minnows in the Zoom room. The FA, PL and EFL were all part of that meeting.
When Oliver Dowden stated in Parliament originally the NL would be supported financially as part of elite sport one expected it to come direct from Government and not Camelot in the days leading up to the start of the season.
I can’t blame Clubs for feeling sold down the river but with the majority now asking the NL to suspend fixtures it is a massive gamble that they take. If those who seek to pressurise Government by lobbying then they risk ‘elite sport’ declassification and what then? I will repeat - be careful what you wish for.
23-01-2021, 11:26 PM
Genuine question for Brandman and this is not a dig at anyone.
Can you explain what exactly 'Elite sport' status means apart from playing games in the NLN/S
I understand totally that elite sports continued during the lock down but cannot see how that could be possible with nil income only outgoings?
I am puzzled as I just can't see what it means at the bottom of the elite sport pyramid I get it for the Premier league with TV revenue etc but it seems to get blurred the further you go down the pyramid.
Even Arsenal took a £20 million loan to help get through but they are big enough to pay it back over time or by selling one player!
You say be careful what you wish for but as an individual whats your solution?
Can you explain what exactly 'Elite sport' status means apart from playing games in the NLN/S
I understand totally that elite sports continued during the lock down but cannot see how that could be possible with nil income only outgoings?
I am puzzled as I just can't see what it means at the bottom of the elite sport pyramid I get it for the Premier league with TV revenue etc but it seems to get blurred the further you go down the pyramid.
Even Arsenal took a £20 million loan to help get through but they are big enough to pay it back over time or by selling one player!
You say be careful what you wish for but as an individual whats your solution?
23-01-2021, 11:33 PM
(23-01-2021, 06:19 PM)Brandman Wrote: [ -> ]Exactly and that was the major issue with the original money from the DCMS. They wanted to get Deloitte to assess each and every club on a need basis. They’d still be pouring over the books now and by the time they took their accountancy fees out the Clubs would be lucky to get £10k a month.
Thete is no such thing as a Hardship fund. All clubs were told if anyone was seriously I struggling then consideration would be given where financial assistance would be a necessity to keep the club afloat. But again the Club books would have to be scrutinised. Prudence doesn’t even come close in my dictionary where crass spending is obvious.
A final point before I go, hthere seems to be a lot being said about a meeting on 17th November and claiming where are the minutes from the NL with the DCMS. Firstly it was a DCMS meeting at which the NL could only have one representative and the NL were the minnows in the Zoom room. The FA, PL and EFL were all part of that meeting.
When Oliver Dowden stated in Parliament originally the NL would be supported financially as part of elite sport one expected it to come direct from Government and not Camelot in the days leading up to the start of the season.
I can’t blame Clubs for feeling sold down the river but with the majority now asking the NL to suspend fixtures it is a massive gamble that they take. If those who seek to pressurise Government by lobbying then they risk ‘elite sport’ declassification and what then? I will repeat - be careful what you wish for.
I've not seen any claim there are minutes from the meeting that the NL will have access to, but there will have been minutes made I am sure. What exactly do you expect clubs to do? Some clubs (Chesterfield opted for option 1 for example) are clearly happy to take on a loan as they are desperate to progress, but most of the 66 clubs don't want to take on a loan themselves and have question marks over the league taken on the loan. The National League should have got in writing that grants would be given all season if needed. Don't shift the blame onto the government when it is the leagues fault. It will be embarrassing if the season can't be completed and if Step 1 is favoured over Step 2 then it will be a disgrace. We should all be treated as 1.
24-01-2021, 05:20 AM
I’ll answer the above two posts in a personal and truthful manner - as someone who has more knowledge for obvious reasons but I am not egging it for any personal agenda - unlike others.
When on 23 March 2020 the Government stopped all activities in society and just not sport, let alone football, nothing like this had happened since 1939. Therefore no one knew what to do. That lead to differing opinions. No one had a clue and it was worse than 1939 because then it did not happen at the time it did with this pandemic with so much of the season having been played. On average clubs only had 7 games left.
The National League in the way it has evolved over the years it always had a difficulty where it stood in the game since it went from one division to three. This is due to most of its regulations being governed by the FA, it’s ability to promote clubs to the EFL is governed by the EFL. There is not one rule which permits the NL to have a say. The EFL could shut the route tomorrow if their Clubs voted it. And the FA and the NL are powerless. That’s another reason why the vexed issue of 3G pitches is a constant battle.
So behind the scenes the NL has always been two competitions in one. Having served the League in many roles over 23 years and having been a voting Board member whilst at FGR and later an independent director my knowledge is first hand.
So when Steps 3 and 4 and below decided, under the control of the FA, to very early on Null and Void their Leagues, there was much angst and even legal proceedings aka South Shields and others.
So straight away clubs in the NL were pulled in differing directions. Many wanted to see the same happen (N&V) whereas many wanted to see the League play on. Those arguments and positioning went on for two months. My preference was to call it a day and settle all divisions on PPG; and whether like it or not, whilst no clubs should be promoted or relegated between our own divisions, we could still - how the EFL regulations were framed - put forward a Champion and a Runner Up to the EFL.
But the fly in the ointment was the EFL, who were in their own arguments with the PL over similar styled issues. It became a right mess. Then Government in May introduced the terminology of Elite Sport which allowed first the PL and then the EFL to continue playing if they applied Protocols to safeguard safety of participants and these came down in forms of guidelines issued by DCMS.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicatio...recreation
Despite this the EFL still had reservations and this caused in fighting between their divisions and whether in League Two they were going to relegate one Club (don’t forget Bury was still another issue) to keep alive the promotion and relegation with the NL. I am sure I do not need to remind anyone about the campaigns raised to support Stevenage on one side and Barrow on the other, which ultimately saw the shameful demise (my opinion) of Macclesfield who were thrown to the wolves, despite many like me in the NL to save them. Their demise impacted on all three NL divisions.
In amongst all this going on, the NL were in a no win situation because a lot of clubs felt that the League should be decided on a PPG basis like the EFL had voted for in Leagues One and Two and like the EFL had done - kept their Play Offs.
I still personally thought it was a mess but as an independent on the Board I did not get a vote. And when legal writs started flying around you know no on is going to listen to you because it’s all about what certain people want for themselves and not for the game. I left the Board. I was already standing down after 12 years on it and that decision was made public in 2019 so it had nothing to do with the wrangles going on through May and June.
I was personally amazed to see a chink open up which saw a legal vote undertaken under the Articles of the Ltd Company which determined from the vote how the Clubs would, like the EFL, settle League positions by PPG and determine Barrow as Champions for promotion, despite the fact that the EFL had still not settled the Stevenage or Macclesfield saga. The full outcome saw Play Offs for Step 1 but to do so DCMS stated we would need similar Protocols etc and mandatory testing. For those Clubs who were in the position of Play Offs for the EFL that would cost them circa £50k but they all accepted that for the chance of reaping the £1M bonanza if they got promoted. This was agreed by the EFL and FA and yours truly was approached to write up the protocols and all other documents. So having stepped away one week I was back in a consultant role over Covid regulations where I have been since mid June in charge of Operations.
The Play Offs were announced on the understanding the NL top division was considered to be Elite Sport because most clubs were full time and 95% of players contracted were deriving a living from playing football. DCMS lays down in their guidelines a definition of an elite athlete. The NL therefore went ahead expecting there to be just a series of 5 games at the very top and no relegation or promotion elsewhere in the whole League.
Then the North and South clubs started a social media campaign led by Havant and York primarily, which lead to the so called infamous letter from DCMS that it was not their job to determine who was Elite Sport. Backed by lobbying from MPs to Ministers that Step 2 should be classed elite sport like Step 1, they won the day. I personally did not subscribe to those views and everyone knows the shouting that went on over those respective views. The majority had their way and that is democracy. You bite the bullet and move on!
Being responsible for writing up the protocols I said to those who would listen - be careful what you wish for. When you become part of Elite Sport it’s not something you can dip in and out of. This will be long term if the pandemic comes back in the intimated numbers predicted by scientists through second and third waves. And it has!
Having won their day the DCMS included Step 2 which meant for Play Offs at that level there had to be relegation from Step 2. So next in came Fylde and Ebbsfleet with legal challenges which cost the NL thousands to take legal advice to thwart those challenges and to support the democratic vote at Step 2. Personal attacks followed on Board members which were reprehensible.
So with that threat looming over then the Board still supported the democratic wish of the Clubs at Step 2. But like Step 1 the cost of the Play Offs would have to fall heavily on the shoulders of those clubs. Testing was very much in its infancy and was not cheap and with no crowds, unlike the Step 1 Play offs, they did not have BT Sport income. To help out the League changed lots of regulations to allow streaming which the NL arranged.
Ironically both Havant and York went out at the first time of asking and the NL eventually won the legal challenge with Fylde/Ebbsfleet and the 2019/20 season was finally concluded in the first week of August with promotion achieved for six clubs.
From my point of view the protocols went really well but I was personally worried that if we had to play 2020/21 behind closed doors how some clubs would financially fmanage, even at Step 1 let alone Step 2.
I couldn’t see how it would work but then Govrrnment announced that crowds could come back starting in October so NL clubs agreed to start in October and all 66 had to agree and sign off their protocols etc before they could return to training etc. It was a hard slog and myself and my team had lots to do and explain to 66 clubs what was expected of them now they were all part of elite sport. We knew that spectators had to be limited and a process was developed by SGSA how to evaluate a social distanced crowd and each had to do that and have it not only approved by my team but by their own local authority. I have to say I’ve never worked so hard plus arranging Zoom meetings to explain the ramifications.
Then disaster!
A couple of weeks before kick off Boris dropped the bombshell that he would not allow spectators back in at elite sport level. The FA were called in over a multitude of issues, mainly around player contracts etc etc. The upshot was that whilst grassroots football could have limited spectators, elite sport couldn’t. Many clubs wanted the removal of elite sport status including some who had fought for it to get into the Play Offs. This proved my point of being careful what you wish for. Again the majority won the day.
Lots of discussions went on with DCMS and the FA and then Government announced that a financial support package would be provided which would allow the NL to start its season. The Clubs accepted this albeit nothing had been seen as to the actual detail. The FA were dealing with DCMS as part of the overall package for football. DCMS would only deal with the governing body.
I was as surprised as anyone when the financial assistance actually came from Camelot. Without going into the whole ramifications of who said what or that and whilst the NL Board has taken stick it is not right they take all the blame. They’ve been pulled this way and that and I am so glad my house is not currently under threat by legal endeavours to sue individuals Board members. It’s all about me, me, me; and not us.
On my side of the fence I see lots of points put on the table for discussion but this latest situation is not the fault of any individual. Nothing is black and white. The suspension of the North and South for two weeks I think is wrong but an overwhelming majority of clubs in those two divisions expressed that’s what they wanted, whereas it was the opposite in the top division. No doubt we shall see more lobbying by different clubs for their own benefit. Again it shows in my opinion why Step 2 should not have been elite sport in the first place.
All I know is this weekend saw a full list of fixtures in the National and only one game due to be lost in Notth and South through Covid. The suspension currently in place has nothing to do with Covid-19 and safety at grounds. I hold all the data. This is all about money and nothing else. And as I repeat every week in Operational Bulletins I do not do financials. My role is very clear and just when we have no clubs in lockdown or COVID cases under investigation this happens. But I’ll carry on because I’m a football man and I want to help. I can attest it’s not been easy with Clubs having private meetings and getting differing groups together to suit themselves and bugger the rest.
In closing the latest happenings is not the result of any voting members of the Clubs agreeing to suspend the Notth and South to protect their own Clubs or self serving. No it’s what the Clubs have asked for in those two divisions. And surprise surprise it’s the Clubs at the top of of divisions who don’t want it suspended.
Who me cynical ......not a chance!!
When on 23 March 2020 the Government stopped all activities in society and just not sport, let alone football, nothing like this had happened since 1939. Therefore no one knew what to do. That lead to differing opinions. No one had a clue and it was worse than 1939 because then it did not happen at the time it did with this pandemic with so much of the season having been played. On average clubs only had 7 games left.
The National League in the way it has evolved over the years it always had a difficulty where it stood in the game since it went from one division to three. This is due to most of its regulations being governed by the FA, it’s ability to promote clubs to the EFL is governed by the EFL. There is not one rule which permits the NL to have a say. The EFL could shut the route tomorrow if their Clubs voted it. And the FA and the NL are powerless. That’s another reason why the vexed issue of 3G pitches is a constant battle.
So behind the scenes the NL has always been two competitions in one. Having served the League in many roles over 23 years and having been a voting Board member whilst at FGR and later an independent director my knowledge is first hand.
So when Steps 3 and 4 and below decided, under the control of the FA, to very early on Null and Void their Leagues, there was much angst and even legal proceedings aka South Shields and others.
So straight away clubs in the NL were pulled in differing directions. Many wanted to see the same happen (N&V) whereas many wanted to see the League play on. Those arguments and positioning went on for two months. My preference was to call it a day and settle all divisions on PPG; and whether like it or not, whilst no clubs should be promoted or relegated between our own divisions, we could still - how the EFL regulations were framed - put forward a Champion and a Runner Up to the EFL.
But the fly in the ointment was the EFL, who were in their own arguments with the PL over similar styled issues. It became a right mess. Then Government in May introduced the terminology of Elite Sport which allowed first the PL and then the EFL to continue playing if they applied Protocols to safeguard safety of participants and these came down in forms of guidelines issued by DCMS.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicatio...recreation
Despite this the EFL still had reservations and this caused in fighting between their divisions and whether in League Two they were going to relegate one Club (don’t forget Bury was still another issue) to keep alive the promotion and relegation with the NL. I am sure I do not need to remind anyone about the campaigns raised to support Stevenage on one side and Barrow on the other, which ultimately saw the shameful demise (my opinion) of Macclesfield who were thrown to the wolves, despite many like me in the NL to save them. Their demise impacted on all three NL divisions.
In amongst all this going on, the NL were in a no win situation because a lot of clubs felt that the League should be decided on a PPG basis like the EFL had voted for in Leagues One and Two and like the EFL had done - kept their Play Offs.
I still personally thought it was a mess but as an independent on the Board I did not get a vote. And when legal writs started flying around you know no on is going to listen to you because it’s all about what certain people want for themselves and not for the game. I left the Board. I was already standing down after 12 years on it and that decision was made public in 2019 so it had nothing to do with the wrangles going on through May and June.
I was personally amazed to see a chink open up which saw a legal vote undertaken under the Articles of the Ltd Company which determined from the vote how the Clubs would, like the EFL, settle League positions by PPG and determine Barrow as Champions for promotion, despite the fact that the EFL had still not settled the Stevenage or Macclesfield saga. The full outcome saw Play Offs for Step 1 but to do so DCMS stated we would need similar Protocols etc and mandatory testing. For those Clubs who were in the position of Play Offs for the EFL that would cost them circa £50k but they all accepted that for the chance of reaping the £1M bonanza if they got promoted. This was agreed by the EFL and FA and yours truly was approached to write up the protocols and all other documents. So having stepped away one week I was back in a consultant role over Covid regulations where I have been since mid June in charge of Operations.
The Play Offs were announced on the understanding the NL top division was considered to be Elite Sport because most clubs were full time and 95% of players contracted were deriving a living from playing football. DCMS lays down in their guidelines a definition of an elite athlete. The NL therefore went ahead expecting there to be just a series of 5 games at the very top and no relegation or promotion elsewhere in the whole League.
Then the North and South clubs started a social media campaign led by Havant and York primarily, which lead to the so called infamous letter from DCMS that it was not their job to determine who was Elite Sport. Backed by lobbying from MPs to Ministers that Step 2 should be classed elite sport like Step 1, they won the day. I personally did not subscribe to those views and everyone knows the shouting that went on over those respective views. The majority had their way and that is democracy. You bite the bullet and move on!
Being responsible for writing up the protocols I said to those who would listen - be careful what you wish for. When you become part of Elite Sport it’s not something you can dip in and out of. This will be long term if the pandemic comes back in the intimated numbers predicted by scientists through second and third waves. And it has!
Having won their day the DCMS included Step 2 which meant for Play Offs at that level there had to be relegation from Step 2. So next in came Fylde and Ebbsfleet with legal challenges which cost the NL thousands to take legal advice to thwart those challenges and to support the democratic vote at Step 2. Personal attacks followed on Board members which were reprehensible.
So with that threat looming over then the Board still supported the democratic wish of the Clubs at Step 2. But like Step 1 the cost of the Play Offs would have to fall heavily on the shoulders of those clubs. Testing was very much in its infancy and was not cheap and with no crowds, unlike the Step 1 Play offs, they did not have BT Sport income. To help out the League changed lots of regulations to allow streaming which the NL arranged.
Ironically both Havant and York went out at the first time of asking and the NL eventually won the legal challenge with Fylde/Ebbsfleet and the 2019/20 season was finally concluded in the first week of August with promotion achieved for six clubs.
From my point of view the protocols went really well but I was personally worried that if we had to play 2020/21 behind closed doors how some clubs would financially fmanage, even at Step 1 let alone Step 2.
I couldn’t see how it would work but then Govrrnment announced that crowds could come back starting in October so NL clubs agreed to start in October and all 66 had to agree and sign off their protocols etc before they could return to training etc. It was a hard slog and myself and my team had lots to do and explain to 66 clubs what was expected of them now they were all part of elite sport. We knew that spectators had to be limited and a process was developed by SGSA how to evaluate a social distanced crowd and each had to do that and have it not only approved by my team but by their own local authority. I have to say I’ve never worked so hard plus arranging Zoom meetings to explain the ramifications.
Then disaster!
A couple of weeks before kick off Boris dropped the bombshell that he would not allow spectators back in at elite sport level. The FA were called in over a multitude of issues, mainly around player contracts etc etc. The upshot was that whilst grassroots football could have limited spectators, elite sport couldn’t. Many clubs wanted the removal of elite sport status including some who had fought for it to get into the Play Offs. This proved my point of being careful what you wish for. Again the majority won the day.
Lots of discussions went on with DCMS and the FA and then Government announced that a financial support package would be provided which would allow the NL to start its season. The Clubs accepted this albeit nothing had been seen as to the actual detail. The FA were dealing with DCMS as part of the overall package for football. DCMS would only deal with the governing body.
I was as surprised as anyone when the financial assistance actually came from Camelot. Without going into the whole ramifications of who said what or that and whilst the NL Board has taken stick it is not right they take all the blame. They’ve been pulled this way and that and I am so glad my house is not currently under threat by legal endeavours to sue individuals Board members. It’s all about me, me, me; and not us.
On my side of the fence I see lots of points put on the table for discussion but this latest situation is not the fault of any individual. Nothing is black and white. The suspension of the North and South for two weeks I think is wrong but an overwhelming majority of clubs in those two divisions expressed that’s what they wanted, whereas it was the opposite in the top division. No doubt we shall see more lobbying by different clubs for their own benefit. Again it shows in my opinion why Step 2 should not have been elite sport in the first place.
All I know is this weekend saw a full list of fixtures in the National and only one game due to be lost in Notth and South through Covid. The suspension currently in place has nothing to do with Covid-19 and safety at grounds. I hold all the data. This is all about money and nothing else. And as I repeat every week in Operational Bulletins I do not do financials. My role is very clear and just when we have no clubs in lockdown or COVID cases under investigation this happens. But I’ll carry on because I’m a football man and I want to help. I can attest it’s not been easy with Clubs having private meetings and getting differing groups together to suit themselves and bugger the rest.
In closing the latest happenings is not the result of any voting members of the Clubs agreeing to suspend the Notth and South to protect their own Clubs or self serving. No it’s what the Clubs have asked for in those two divisions. And surprise surprise it’s the Clubs at the top of of divisions who don’t want it suspended.
Who me cynical ......not a chance!!
24-01-2021, 01:04 PM
Enlightening Brandman
Thank you for sharing
Thank you for sharing
25-01-2021, 04:45 PM
Excellent post Colin - below is a quote from this weekends NLP forgive me those who have already read it but to those who haven’t:-
I quote - from a DCMS spokesperson ......
“ It is untrue to suggest funding to the National League was ever promised all as grants and they have been unable to substantiate the claim. In October we brokered a unique deal with the National Lottery to provide a £10 million cash injection to keep step 1&2 clubs afloat, and recently announced another £11 million in low interest loans to support them in line with support offered to other sports.
If any individual step 1&2 NL club can demonstrate it is in critical need of support and would be UNABLE to repay a loan grant applications will be assessed on a case by case basis.”
I quote - from a DCMS spokesperson ......
“ It is untrue to suggest funding to the National League was ever promised all as grants and they have been unable to substantiate the claim. In October we brokered a unique deal with the National Lottery to provide a £10 million cash injection to keep step 1&2 clubs afloat, and recently announced another £11 million in low interest loans to support them in line with support offered to other sports.
If any individual step 1&2 NL club can demonstrate it is in critical need of support and would be UNABLE to repay a loan grant applications will be assessed on a case by case basis.”
Pages: 1 2